Do the Change: Reimagining OEHS with Sangeeta Agarawal (Part 1)

For Do The Change's third episode of the season, we are joined by a guest with a truly exceptional story: Sangeeta "San" Agarawal, RN, MS, CAS. San's journey starts off in a very traditional part of India where education was something she had to fight for. Driven by a thirst for knowledge and passion to help others, she enjoyed a successful career in both the tech and nursing fields, creating a tech company and later working as a registered nurse. Still motivated by her desire to work more closely with the people she yearns to help, San most recently pivoted into occupational health, where she is now about to graduate with her NP, and will be starting her PhD with the UC Occupational Health and Nursing Department.

See full transcript here: https://www.coeh.berkeley.edu/do-change-sangeeta-agarawal

Transcript

JOANNE TEH: 0:00

Hey guys, welcome to Do The Change podcast where we're challenging and reimagining Occupational and Environmental Health Sciences. In this podcast, we focus on upcoming and current leaders in their field and dive into how they got to where they are today, and their advice for those interested in the field. My name is Joanne Teh and I'm a current undergraduate here at Berkeley. And our guest for this episode is Sangeeta Agarawal.

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 0:22

Hey everyone! Thank you for being here.

JOANNE TEH: 0:25

Thanks for joining us. So Sangeeta Agarawal or San for short is a computer, an AI engineer who is an integrative medicine clinician. She's passionate about quality of life for people undergoing serious health conditions and for workers in relation to Total Worker Health. In the past she's worked in developing digital health technologies, founding a company that empowered people going through cancer and other short-term disabilities by providing a combination of high-tech and high touch solutions. This company built the first digital AI nurse for symptom management and navigation called San and currently continues her research in this field as she graduates with her MP in occupational health and is moving forward to starting her PhD with the UC Occupational Health and Nursing department. So, nice to meet you San.

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 1:11

Thank you Joanne for having me here. So nice to meet you too and it's truly a privilege to be here and I hope I can add value to our listeners.

JOANNE TEH: 1:20

Definitely, I think you have a really cool story so I don't doubt it at all. So speaking of would you like to like kind of go into like how you- my most, my top question for you when I learned about you was how you went from Tech to nursing to occupational health. So, yeah it's quite this sequence, so would you like to tell us a little bit about that?

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 1:45

Yeah, it is quite a journey. So I was, when I was growing up my great grandfather was a Vaidya, an Indian medicine doctor. So the very first thing I learned was Healthcare and taking care of people and that's something that you know I became passionate about from very early on. After that I had a rough childhood so I almost grew up on the streets, you know pretty much depending on charity and public health system for supporting me. I ended up you know being a complete nerd and being scrappy and finding my way through life including like giving my own name, going to school, giving my own name, studying by street lights and you know finding my path forward um and I did a career in Tech, came to U.S. and then I ended up building after working in some tech companies I ended up building video streaming on phone which got acquired by Skype giving rise to Skype Mobile.

JOANNE TEH: 2:56

Wow.

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 2:57

Thank you so it gave me an opportunity at that time to pause and think about what I want to do in my life it was also about the time that I had just got married to the love of my life and he was super supportive or he continues to be super supportive and he was like just go do what makes you happy, you know? It's fine.

JOANNE TEH: 3:21

So sweet.

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 3:21

Yeah so, so I did. I went and be who I wanted to be. And I decided to pursue a career in healthcare and part of what was happening around that time was I had been through a very difficult disability in my life. A very difficult health challenge, physical and mental, and I needed some time off to you know recover. But I knew nothing about disability or anything and I was on Visa and it so happened that because I got married I could take time off, but otherwise I didn't know how I could have possibly taken time off so that really made me feel that there is this really precarious aspect of you could lose everything that you worked hard for if you suddenly get sick, because everything is you know your insurance your employment your Visa status could be tied to your work, so that's something that was always at the back of my mind, and then as I worked on recovering my own health I felt like you know I want to devote the rest of my life to empowering other people to have the quality of life that they want and my husband Shaunak was super supportive about it so I pursued career in both eastern and western medicines. I went back to my Eastern roots and trained at the highest level in that area, becoming a clinical Ayurveda practitioner and yoga practitioner and continue to run a small nonprofit kind of clinic supporting people in the community in that space and also from a research perspective doing at NCI doing review of integrative medicine research and then on the nursing side I pursued career in nursing and became a cancer nurse, mostly focused on symptom management and navigation for cancer patients and helping them through their journey. In the last five years or like 2015/2016 onwards like after I had done some research in this area and saw the combination of how whole health and you know like a structured program can support people with having great outcomes had done that research at UC. I felt like if I could make this available to a large number of people in the community then that can help many many people who are going through cancer and other short-term disabilities. So UC was really supportive, I was working at UC at that time and I went through all the different entrepreneurship program and I was in UC skydeck so I worked on building that company from ground up, you know, hands on and everything and then ended up you know, working through and supporting a lot of people going through this, so helped over 27,000 people going through cancer and worked with disability carriers and worked on changing some of the paradigm and awareness about this. At the same time some of the challenges I was facing was that what I was seeing the problem people had was that they were stuck between this rock and a hard place where they needed to take time off for treatment, they were going through a lot of you know health problems, side effects, complications, that is kind of you know part of going through a serious illness but at the same time their insurance was tied to work and they felt all this you know this whole struggle between working and and getting treatment. So I felt like there was this very strong connection between employ- between Occupational Health aspect and serious illnesses. And then on the other hand in my clinic what I was seeing was that lot of muscularskeletal and lot of day to-day health challenges like even mental health and stress and all of that was related to work because people are spending the whole day there, right? So that got me interested in the Occupational Health piece and I feel like I wanted to understand that field more in depth and be able to help people to live well and work well and be healthy. And around the same time, you know logistically from a business perspective there was, it was getting complicated during covid to keep the company running with the kind of contracts that we had, so I felt like the best way I could continue the work forward and serve people was to actually do my nurse practitioner degree and PhD in this area, because as a nurse practitioner, I would be able to help people in the community hands-on as a clinician and they can use, people can use their insurance to come and see me. And from the technology perspective, like the kind of work I was doing was so much at the cutting edge that either I needed to raise a lot of money to build those technologies or I needed to do it as a research, you know from a research perspective so NCI was you know NCI program managers were very kind to kind of guide me in that direction. They're like you know how about think of doing it as a research, it's so cutting edge. So that's how I found my way here and I hope I can continue to do good things with serving people and with making contribution and difference in the community.

JOANNE TEH: 9:38

That's awesome, wow. At first I was surprised because it sounded like this sequence of like fields was kind of like how did you manage to go through these three fields? But after you explain it and like how it was just like a natural consequence of like following your personal passions in these fields it makes so much sense.

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 9:54

Yeah thank you I love empowering people to be able to do what they want in life because in my life I wanted to have, I wanted to be able to have a say over what my destiny is and what my life will be whether you know I grew up on the streets in India or grew up as you know as a girl child in a very traditional part of India or I went through you know like these really horrible disabling situations and you know, I would have in all of these if I just let the situation take over I would have felt helpless and my destiny would have been different, but I found you know a way to lift myself up and do and carve my own destiny with the help of people and resources in the community and that's what I want to offer people or that's what I continue to offer people through my work and that's what I'm really passionate about is helping people to feel they still have the power even when life is going wrong and even when things are falling apart and it's chaotic.

JOANNE TEH: 11:09

That's so admirable did you ever have like moments of doubt as you're going through these different like career changes and like following your passion because that's like the hard part right like feeling doubt as you're trying to follow your passion?

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 11:22

Yeah. Oh, yeah I mean I wouldn't, it's not so much doubt I just felt like I was really, I felt critical of myself.

JOANNE TEH: 11:34

Ah, I see.

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 11:36

Because of the uncertainty. It's like you know, I could have a a really good stable career as a computer engineer.

JOANNE TEH: 11:45

Yeah, you mentioned Skype Mobile like that's amazing.

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 11:49

I could have done that, but I changed careers, spent years learning, and then I went into healthcare and then I was working in healthcare and now I'm like no I want to be able to serve more people and be able to do more for you know for contributing to the area. And then I go and you know try these new things and I went through, I go through all these struggles and challenges and failures and ups and downs and you know kind of re what feels like restarting my career a bunch of times. So through all of that, I'm like why do I have this itch? You know, this craziness to to do all these things instead of like having a good stable job and you know growing in that and being happy, so that's kind of what I've struggled with many times. But I just find that I've embraced my nerdiness at this point. This is, this is just who I am I know I want to be able to continue to contribute and make a difference so I'll keep finding ways to do that, yeah I think it's the uncertainty that makes it hard, but I also feel that you know we have one life and if you feel that you have something that's calling you and that you're meant to do or that you're really passionate about and you see that problem that's bigger than you, then no matter like the probability of success in that area, I feel like it's worthwhile to pursue that and to work on making that difference. Because even if I go till so far you know, even if I don't reach my end goal of 100% but even if I reach 30 40% or whoever is pursuing like even if you make some progress you worked towards an arc of progress and there will be, it'll create this momentum and energy where other people will you know be inspired and think that's a good idea and try to work on it, replicate it, grow it, do it their own way and soon that can create this arc, this momentum, that can cause this change towards what you, you know what you hoped to achieve right how you see the world as a better place you can actually make that happen. So that's why I feel like it's it's worth pursuing that, you know, like in my own life, I come like I mentioned I come from a very traditional background so in my community girls got you know, women like they got engaged when they were 16 and got married at 18. They were not allowed to study or work but I believed that I, you know I wanted to be able to do things on my own and I did I just went to school on my own and registered myself.

JOANNE TEH: 15:21

Oh my goodness.

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 15:23

And studied by through school lights I mean street lights, and then when it came time to work I did that and when it came time to pursuing higher degree and coming to U.S., nobody in my family had done that and in fact people were against it. I faced lot of push backs I was literally on the streets, but I believe that could make a difference and if I succeeded in this it could it will help me to live the life that I want but it will also open up pathways for other people which is what it did because after I had worked after I came to U.S., I studied I worked and you know my relatives saw that I'm alive and I'm well and nothing like you know that they were afraid happened to me. All my cousins after this have had opportunities to pursue their career right so I feel like it's worth pursuing even if there is hardship even if you have some setbacks and failure and somebody else carries the work forward I think it's worth it. And same with my Tech Career I you know when I built the technology it was because I saw really horrible things happen to people and I feel like if they had a way that they could just push a button on their phone and show what was actually happening to them instead of somebody else's narrative of what was happening in the situation that would empower them and by building this technology like early on in 2000s it did that, today you know people use video and live streaming all the time, you know FaceTime. It's a reality today.

JOANNE TEH: 17:13

That's awesome, wow, oh my goodness. That's really inspiring actually. I'm gonna have to like reflect on myself after this. I wanted to ask you it's like when times we tough like what things did you do or things did you turn to in order to like make yourself see like the light at the end the tunnel, to remind yourself like why you're doing this, how did you push through?

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 17:35

I think you actually answered the question in the question because like you said it's about you remind yourself why are you doing it.

JOANNE TEH: 17:45

I see yeah.

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 17:47

Yeah. That's what matters and I feel like even if you know it's kind of like do or die, so even if I fail trying, if the goal is so important if it's big enough then it's worth it, you know that's that's just how I see it and I think the other thing is sometimes with hard situations it's like the only way is through. So you hang in there and you drag things to the finish line or you drag yourself to the finish line because you just need to, you know? You just want to get there and you just work through whatever needs to be worked through to get there whether that's you know 10 issues in 10 different areas or you know 200 issues in 200 different areas you just, you know keep working through it till you get to that finish line or you know till you get to wherever you need to be.

JOANNE TEH: 18:56

Mhm.

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 18:57

Yes I think that helps me and daily practices like self-care practices I think those are huge, for me that's what keeps me grounded so I-

JOANNE TEH: 19:09

What you personally practice? Sorry.

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 19:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually that's perfect that's exactly what I was gonna get into. Yeah, so I do daily Kriya and meditation. Kriya is like a breathing technique. So I do daily Kriya meditation, I do daily workout whether that's a short home workout or I go to um to a workout class so I do that every day and then the one thing that I found really helpful once I added to my life was planning so one of my friend introduced me to this initially it's a planning in in like the different areas of your life we did it as a new year exercise I think one time. So planning in like the main areas of your life I think it's like seven areas or something so, so making your plan in those areas like what is it that you want to, where are you today, how do you feel about it, and then where do you want to be. So you have that plan whether that's you know annual you can do like a longer term 5 year/10 year plan, and then from that I break it down into a quarterly plan so I do that every quarter, I have a plan for what I hope to accomplish is generally pretty aggressive so there some some percentage of it, and then from that I make the monthly and weekly so you know I just kind of work my way backwards looking at those goals and then I will make my plan for the week in those areas, so every day and then from that every day. So I journal every every day so I'll plan okay this is what I'm going to do today and then I check did I work on that. And then every day I journal what I accomplished and what I want to improve and what I'm grateful for, so those are things that I do every day. Plus I want to share one more thing which is that I would say I would call myself a modern Yogi, so I follow yoga not just from like the asana perspective but from the scripture perspective. So Patanjali Yoga Sutra so I follow the teachings of that and that has yamas and niyamas which are basically principles so Patanjali was a scientist who gives you this scientific book in a way like from a holistic perspective scientific book on how to live life well. How to live life in harmony so it has principles that internal disciplines and external disciplines, so I journal on that every day and that's how I catch myself if I went off track on something so yeah so those are part of my practices on a daily basis that keeps me really grounded.

JOANNE TEH: 22:28

I really like the method of planning that you mentioned like starting from your big picture goals and going smaller, working backwards that means like you're for sure going to keep your main goal in mind. I think it's easy because I will often do my I will usually do my planning day by day because that's just like what's convenient like Google Calendar shows me the week in advance but then I forget like what I'm actually working towards.

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 22:51

Yeah, yeah. I forget too and that's why I have to remind myself, you know.

JOANNE TEH: 22:56

Mhm. That's awesome.

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 22:58

And I have like reminders in different places like stuck on the different walls and by my bathroom mirror with like that's what you're working towards in case you've forgotten.

JOANNE TEH: 23:10

That's awesome, okay. Then how about we pivot or actually wait before we pivot to asking you about your Occupational Health, your work in Occupational Health, I wanted to ask you like so your app it's or is it an app?

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 23:26

Yeah, yeah. So that company I ended up having to wrap it up.

JOANNE TEH: 23:31

Ahh.

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 23:32

But yes it was an app it was a health-c app and it had a combination of high-tech and high touch so it had a AI nurse and a digital Health platform that navigated people through different symptoms and different issues and then there was also a clinical team, a interdisciplinary clinical team that was involved in the care of patients. So the combination of the two worked in providing care to people and enabling them to be able to go through these difficult illnesses, you know, yeah so that's what it was doing the challenge with that was the business model because as you know digital health is not reimbursed so building all that technology it was difficult to actually get reimbursed for those technologies and then it required a lot of Business Development and sales which was also expensive and the operating cost of that. So that was some of the challenge there and because I was myself not directly a practitione I couldn't, I had to work under the license of other providers so that's where I felt that if I am a practitioner then I can work alongside a physician but I can provide care and it can be reimbursed by insurance and the kind of technologies I was building, some of those were getting into like really cutting edge stuff so I wanted to build them in a very systematic focused way so that it's safe for patients before we make it accessible, you know because once you put a tech out there and it's available to people you don't know what might be the health condition of someone who's accessing it. So I wanted to make sure that before I commercialize you know these AI chatbots and nurse- and and symptom management technologies, they were well tested so that's where I felt that it's better to actually roll it back and pursue it from a research perspective.

JOANNE TEH: 25:55

I see so that's what led you to like currently going back to school doing all these programs, I see.

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 26:02

Yeah. JOANNE TEH: Interesting. Yeah. So if I did my research correctly you did your, you got your RN from UCSF is that correct? I got my RN in 2012 from Samuel Meritt and I'm getting my nurse practitioner in Occupational Health now at UCSF.

JOANNE TEH: 26:23

Oh I see there we go.

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 26:24

Yeah, yeah. And we take classes with both the UCSF Occupational and Med and we take classes with the UC Berkeley Public Health Department so with Dr Clarissa Harris and other people in public health as well and then I'm going to continue on with my PhD from this combo of UCSF, UC Berkeley in Occupational Health.

JOANNE TEH: 26:52

I see, I see, so how do you like it so far?

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 26:55

I love it, I love it. I feel like I came for for the clinical or the learning or the topics on my checklist, you know, it went from head to heart because I just feel like I found the community where I feel at home where I feel like I belong and it just, it just feels comfortable and it's inspiring it's comfortable and inspiring at the same time like I feel that I belong here, I feel safe, I feel accepted, I feel like there is a lot of diversity and there is acceptance of diversity and at the same time people are so freaking brilliant and they're so passionate about their field and they find ways to make a difference, you know despite all the challenges and push backs and working through years in fact decades and decades on whatever topic they're passionate about. And I feel like that's how I feel and that's how I am so I felt like a misfit for many years and here I just feel like I found my community and I found my people so I absolutely love it. It gives me all the intellectual, more than enough intellectual stimulation that I need. It gives me direction, I have amazing mentors and teachers and I get so much love and support, I can't see myself not being part of it.

JOANNE TEH: 28:37

That's awesome, wow so that's why you're committing to a full PhD in Occupational Health hmm, yeah.

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 28:43

Yeah. JOANNE TEH: Where are you currently researching? Yeah. So my plan is to work as a nurse practitioner and do my research, so do my PhD so I want to be a clinician who's working and seeing people in the field and seeing real problems and working on those in my research and kind of it's a feedback loop.

JOANNE TEH: 29:03

Ahh.

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 29:03

Where I can improve care, yeah. So for your question, sorry I interrupted you, about what am I what my research, what is my research area, so my research area is at the intersection of cancer treatment and leave management so people who are working and just got diagnosed with cancer I'm starting with breast cancer, so people are diagnosed with breast cancer so they need treatment they need time off, the treatment tends to be you know anything between 6 months to 18 months long, but the leave typically like short-term disable, the FMLA is just 3 months and then people can get short-term disability, you know who have that eligibility but others don't so there is just this whole challenge between the treatment and the need for time off, for the treatment and managing the side effects and you know managing your health and at the same time, the commitment towards being at work and the risk of losing you know your job like not having that protection at work. So that's the intersection that I'm looking at currently what are the problems in that area who is working on it, what is being currently done, where the gaps are and then what can be done to support people who are undergoing active treatment, employees, you know people who are working who are going through active treatment and need you know support and programs that are designed for it, so that's the area I'm interested in working on that's the area I'm working on. And my goal is to understand this in more depth and then be able to develop solutions to address it, incorporating my background in in eastern and western medicine so provide that whole health approach and technology for it, yeah.

JOANNE TEH: 31:27

Mhm, wow. That's really cool. How's the journey going so far like is have you been able to start working towards that?

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 31:36

Yeah I have it's it's really going amazing I have like amazing like a, you know the community is just so awesome with people who are passionate about it and who can you know connect you to other people who are passionate about it. So, yeah so I started to research on this topic even in my nurse practitioner program it's part of my class projects and Dr. Soo-Jeong Lee and Dr. Hong who are the two main professors in the Occupational Health nursing department, they were very supportive and I was able to do a poster presentation at the Occupational Medicine conference last year on this topic when I was just starting out my Master's Degree. And then this year I continued to go deeper into it and worked on this topic for my comp paper so I reviewed researched papers in this area all the papers in that area and I presented at the Occupational Health conference then I've interviewed Healthcare professionals who are working with this population and seeing what they are finding or what the processes are and that I'm presenting next week at the oncology nursing Society, the annual conference because I want other oncology nurses to know about this and learn what they are doing what's happening in their institution and hear their thoughts on it, what could be done. And I'm part of an IRB at Kaiser on this topic where I'm doing research on this area and looking at actual patient charts so I have like really amazing mentors to support me in this Dr. Lou at Kaiser allowed me, he's a PI, he's allowed me to be part of his research and then my advisor Dr Hong, Dr Lee, have been helping me with learning how to navigate research and then one of the one person who was really instrumental for me when I started out was actually one of the Emeritus from the program Emeritus faculty Dr Barbara Burgel, she had, she talked in some of the events and I reached out to her and shared with her my passion and she was very supportive and responsive and she's kind of being my mentor when I started out and it kind of supported me through my tons of ideas and directing me and helping me to be excited about it. So she's been amazing and the seniors have also been super supportive, one of the senior Dory she became my peer Mentor and she's helped me to see what the path can look like a year ahead and how she's thinking about the field, so it's really really cool.

JOANNE TEH: 34:57

Awesome, a few things one good luck on your presentation next week.

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 35:02

Thank you.

JOANNE TEH: 35:03

And two, it sounds like you found a lot of good mentors via like your own personal like reaching out to them or like it just seems like you've been able to land yourself many good mentors so do you have any tips for people who are like young professionals trying to look for mentors in your field?

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 35:18

Yeah I mean, I would say first of all, I would say that think about what is it that you want to accomplish. You know, so think about what is your goals and what you can do, like the way I think about it is what can I do I want to I want to do ABC and then what can I do about it right now, what can I research online about it what programs or you know where can I gather the information about it, and how far can I get? And then I figured out what are the places I got stuck, what are the questions that I have that are you know like this not that I can't solve or you know something that I don't know what to expect or do I have a solid understanding, like you know a soundboard for what is it that I want to validate with somebody. So once I know what exactly I want then I try to figure out who are the people who have already done this? These are the people who have walked the path so they know answers to the kind of things that I'm trying to work on, right? So then I try to identify those people and I think being part of a great community is that difference you know UC has one of the most incredible communities that is very open and supportive. I know that if I send a message generally people will respond back from my UC email, if not the first one by the third time people respond. And I do the same you know if somebody reaches out to me for guidance or support I will you know at least direct them in the right, you know in in a particular way to help them with their goal. So I would say like figure out you know what is it you want who are the people and then among those people who can be in your network that you can either reach out to directly because you know them or someone you know knows them you know LinkedIn is a great place because you may know so many people, or they may know the person that you want to know and you see email is connected to LinkedIn, so you can search somebody's name you can search the LinkedIn, so usually either through the direct email or LinkedIn you find somebody and you know get connected to people. So that's how I do it and then when I message that person I give them a little intro about you know my background like a very short blurb, one or two lines and then I tell them exactly what I'm looking for and many times it's sometimes either a quick answer from them where it might be like a short email they have to reply back or they can direct me to a resource or it might be that you know I want a quick call and, or they might suggest well why don't I do a quick call with you so that's how I generally do it and then I make sure that I thank that person for their time and if I can do something to help them with their goals I try to do that sometimes that's simple like you know they may want to be connected to somebody, something you know or they goal is something and like oh I know this person who can help them or this particular thing might help them so, so I just try to do something that could help them or another great way is to to write a nice review for them you know like either you can write a nice review on LinkedIn or just send their supervisor a nice note saying this person went above and beyond to help me even if they didn't have to so I really appreciate it and that's a nice way for them to get you know appreciated for the work that they're doing to help you beyond their day-to-day job.

JOANNE TEH: 39:34

Mhm wow. It's like you read my mind as you were explaining like your tips I was thinking myself like the next thing I was going to ask you is like a lot of people who are like my age undergrads, newly graduated students I feel like the thing that they struggle a lot with when it comes to networking is like not feeling like a leech quote unquote like making sure that they I don't know can help their Mentor in some way so that it's not just like fully one-sided, but yeah those are great tips.

SANGEETA AGARAWAL: 40:00

Yeah, I feel like mentors like being able to see somebody you know reach their goal and flourish in that, like I know I do when I Mentor students and when I Mentor nurses or recept nurses in whatever role, right? It makes, it gives me joy to see that this is something that they wanted to accomplish and now they're very grounded in it and they're like yeah I got this you know. So I think one way to thank them is to actually keep them updated about your progress and say look this helped me and now I'm, you know what I accomplished that goal and I'm now working on ABC so that itself is very gratifying.

JOANNE TEH: 40:56

Wow that's a really nice perspective. I don't often hear like the perspective of the mentor so that's really awesome, actually. Hey guys this is Joanne, your host for this episode and we have reached the end of part one of this conversation with our wonderful guest. Don't click out yet because part two of this conversation has already been posted, so check out our page to finish the conversation. Don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel and follow us on Spotify and Instagram @dothechangepodcast.